Comments on: Menus http://wrecking.org/cbd/2006/08/14/menus/ Software studies, technical communication, writing studies, web accessibility, and new media. Life with my girls. Tue, 07 Oct 2008 03:18:21 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.2 By: cbd http://wrecking.org/cbd/2006/08/14/menus/#comment-2672 cbd Mon, 28 Aug 2006 15:12:29 +0000 http://wrecking.org/cbd/2006/08/07/menus/#comment-2672 What are the defining features, besides the visual look and feel? I've been tinking about this since starting this discussion. Most of the old standbys are gone (no, I don't miss the Chooser). The dock? I do know a few Windows users who put the taskbar at the top of the screen. But it doesn't work so well there; quite a few elements of its function depend on being at the bottom of the screen. And we wouldn't be having this conversation at all if interface designers took keyboard shortcuts more seriously. What are the defining features, besides the visual look and feel? I’ve been tinking about this since starting this discussion. Most of the old standbys are gone (no, I don’t miss the Chooser). The dock?

I do know a few Windows users who put the taskbar at the top of the screen. But it doesn’t work so well there; quite a few elements of its function depend on being at the bottom of the screen.

And we wouldn’t be having this conversation at all if interface designers took keyboard shortcuts more seriously.

]]> By: Jeff Watkins http://wrecking.org/cbd/2006/08/14/menus/#comment-2615 Jeff Watkins Sat, 26 Aug 2006 22:54:18 +0000 http://wrecking.org/cbd/2006/08/07/menus/#comment-2615 John, having the menu at the top of the screen isn't the _only_ defining characteristic of the Macintosh interface, but is certainly one of the more emblematic features. Similarly, putting the menus at the top of the display under Windows simply wouldn't happen because that's just not how Windows works: it's too radical a shift. There's an interesting post on the Office 2007 blog from Jensen Harris about Fitts Law: <a href="http://blogs.msdn.com/jensenh/archive/2006/08/22/711808.aspx" rel="nofollow">Giving You Fitts</a>. In the era of multiple monitors and ultra-humungous displays, having the menu only at the top of the primary monitor does seem to cause problems for some people. And I agree this deserves some attention. But the answer definitely isn't putting the 22 pixel tall menu bar somewhere in the _middle_ of a 1200 pixel tall display. John, having the menu at the top of the screen isn’t the _only_ defining characteristic of the Macintosh interface, but is certainly one of the more emblematic features. Similarly, putting the menus at the top of the display under Windows simply wouldn’t happen because that’s just not how Windows works: it’s too radical a shift.

There’s an interesting post on the Office 2007 blog from Jensen Harris about Fitts Law: Giving You Fitts.

In the era of multiple monitors and ultra-humungous displays, having the menu only at the top of the primary monitor does seem to cause problems for some people. And I agree this deserves some attention. But the answer definitely isn’t putting the 22 pixel tall menu bar somewhere in the _middle_ of a 1200 pixel tall display.

]]> By: Dean http://wrecking.org/cbd/2006/08/14/menus/#comment-2530 Dean Mon, 21 Aug 2006 04:42:33 +0000 http://wrecking.org/cbd/2006/08/07/menus/#comment-2530 I agree with CBD. I have a Intel iMac and another 20" LCD. I would rather not have to move across to the other screen just to use menus. I agree with CBD. I have a Intel iMac and another 20″ LCD. I would rather not have to move across to the other screen just to use menus.

]]> By: John http://wrecking.org/cbd/2006/08/14/menus/#comment-2489 John Tue, 15 Aug 2006 14:37:54 +0000 http://wrecking.org/cbd/2006/08/07/menus/#comment-2489 "Finally, the other reason why you’ll _never_ see the menu bar on Mac OS anywhere other than the top of the screen is because that’s where it _is_ on the Mac. Don’t underestimate the power of this argument either. If the menu were somewhere else, it wouldn’t be a Mac any more." Really? I'm trying to puzzle this one out. I should note here that my first Mac was a Mac Plus that replaced Apple II+, and this month marks my 17th year as a Mac owner. I just can't bring myself to accept the claim that the definition of a Mac is a menu bar at the top. No, I'm comfortable in saying that the menu bar could be moved around without fundamentally disrupting the Maciness of the OS or the experience, if for no other reason than that Microsoft (or anyone else) *could* put a menu bar at the top of the screen if they really wanted to and the result would *not* be a Mac. “Finally, the other reason why you’ll _never_ see the menu bar on Mac OS anywhere other than the top of the screen is because that’s where it _is_ on the Mac. Don’t underestimate the power of this argument either. If the menu were somewhere else, it wouldn’t be a Mac any more.”

Really? I’m trying to puzzle this one out. I should note here that my first Mac was a Mac Plus that replaced Apple II+, and this month marks my 17th year as a Mac owner. I just can’t bring myself to accept the claim that the definition of a Mac is a menu bar at the top. No, I’m comfortable in saying that the menu bar could be moved around without fundamentally disrupting the Maciness of the OS or the experience, if for no other reason than that Microsoft (or anyone else) *could* put a menu bar at the top of the screen if they really wanted to and the result would *not* be a Mac.

]]> By: cbd http://wrecking.org/cbd/2006/08/14/menus/#comment-2480 cbd Tue, 15 Aug 2006 04:33:58 +0000 http://wrecking.org/cbd/2006/08/07/menus/#comment-2480 There might have been a shortage of mouse buttons when Woz was cobbling together the Lisa, but since the discovery of Buttonia in 1984, there's been no need to be stingy. Hopefully Jobs will hear about Screenland before I die. I don't have a problem with the system menu being at the top of the screen. But keeping the application menus there is a nightmare. I once had some little mouse odometer thingy; wish I had that again. It would be interesting to see how many marathons I'm racking up traversing the screen to get to the &@#*! File menu. There might have been a shortage of mouse buttons when Woz was cobbling together the Lisa, but since the discovery of Buttonia in 1984, there’s been no need to be stingy. Hopefully Jobs will hear about Screenland before I die.

I don’t have a problem with the system menu being at the top of the screen. But keeping the application menus there is a nightmare. I once had some little mouse odometer thingy; wish I had that again. It would be interesting to see how many marathons I’m racking up traversing the screen to get to the &@#*! File menu.

]]> By: tengrrl http://wrecking.org/cbd/2006/08/14/menus/#comment-2479 tengrrl Tue, 15 Aug 2006 02:27:51 +0000 http://wrecking.org/cbd/2006/08/07/menus/#comment-2479 look dude, you are wrong, and Bradley is right. Do NOT contradict the Dilger or I will send the ramming machine to your house to break things you keep on the floor and up to two feet above. look dude, you are wrong, and Bradley is right. Do NOT contradict the Dilger or I will send the ramming machine to your house to break things you keep on the floor and up to two feet above.

]]> By: Jeff Watkins http://wrecking.org/cbd/2006/08/14/menus/#comment-2472 Jeff Watkins Mon, 14 Aug 2006 19:22:05 +0000 http://wrecking.org/cbd/2006/08/07/menus/#comment-2472 First, there was no reason to admit a one-button mouse is a Bad Idea, because it's not. For the majority of users, one button is all they need on the Mac. (Note: I said for the Mac, not for Windows or Linux.) While I like the idea of a multi-button mouse, more than a decade of using Apple laptops has convinced me there isn't anything I can do quicker with a context menu than a keyboard shortcut. Or for that matter, the regular application menu. As far as the menu bar goes, you'll never see a version of Mac OS that doesn't have the menu bar at the top. Let me be very specific: _never_. Not a few years from now. Not a decade from now. NEVER. Now I'd be the first to admit that multiple monitors makes the menu bar (and the dock) a more challenging tool, but the usability arguments in favour of having the menu bar at the top of the screen so far out weigh the inconvenience of having to get my passport stamped just to open the file menu. We might see something interesting with Leopards virtual desktops where you can assign a desktop to a second monitor complete with a second menu bar. But I think that would be a bit confusing. Finally, the other reason why you'll _never_ see the menu bar on Mac OS anywhere other than the top of the screen is because that's where it _is_ on the Mac. Don't underestimate the power of this argument either. If the menu were somewhere else, it wouldn't be a Mac any more. Really, this is one reason why Microsoft hasn't moved the menu bar to the top of the screen. Microsoft has done everything they can to increase the target size of the menu, witness the new Office 2007 UI. But they can't fundamentally change where the menu and tool bars go, because then it wouldn't be Windows any more. First, there was no reason to admit a one-button mouse is a Bad Idea, because it’s not. For the majority of users, one button is all they need on the Mac. (Note: I said for the Mac, not for Windows or Linux.)

While I like the idea of a multi-button mouse, more than a decade of using Apple laptops has convinced me there isn’t anything I can do quicker with a context menu than a keyboard shortcut. Or for that matter, the regular application menu.

As far as the menu bar goes, you’ll never see a version of Mac OS that doesn’t have the menu bar at the top. Let me be very specific: _never_. Not a few years from now. Not a decade from now. NEVER.

Now I’d be the first to admit that multiple monitors makes the menu bar (and the dock) a more challenging tool, but the usability arguments in favour of having the menu bar at the top of the screen so far out weigh the inconvenience of having to get my passport stamped just to open the file menu. We might see something interesting with Leopards virtual desktops where you can assign a desktop to a second monitor complete with a second menu bar. But I think that would be a bit confusing.

Finally, the other reason why you’ll _never_ see the menu bar on Mac OS anywhere other than the top of the screen is because that’s where it _is_ on the Mac. Don’t underestimate the power of this argument either. If the menu were somewhere else, it wouldn’t be a Mac any more. Really, this is one reason why Microsoft hasn’t moved the menu bar to the top of the screen. Microsoft has done everything they can to increase the target size of the menu, witness the new Office 2007 UI. But they can’t fundamentally change where the menu and tool bars go, because then it wouldn’t be Windows any more.

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